Curse

FengShuiDove · May 18, 2009, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megas XLR

So I heard you can do UW in 30 minutes with SF?

And I heard, no, I REMEMBER (something that people on this forum never tend to do), that it could be done with ONE perma-Sin using SF before by employing 3-4 Eles with Obsidian Flesh. If the point of killing Shadow Form would be to stop UWSC, then you're gonna have to kill Earth tanks as well. It's almost as fast, and, while it might take knowledge of 4 skills instead of 3 to stay alive, it's practically the same thing.

SF is fine. Other methods of farming are fine. I hate dungeon runs and I'll still say that. Some areas need an "easy" button because frankly, some areas are ridiculous without a good guild/alliance, and since a good guild/alliance gets harder to find every day, Shadow farming and 600 runnings are definitely a good thing in my book.

ponk · May 18, 2009, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Shadow form is fine as long as you give other classes a same kind of "fun" skill to be near invincible. There are more classes in gw then assassin and they want to do some elite area farming in under 30 minutes as well. And yeah there are people out there that like playing a class other then assassin (strange but true).
I dont pvp a lot so can't be bothered to check the nerfs on the skills they did for this month. I just dont understand why they have skills nerfed for both pvp and pve. And what can we say about the poor Rit's and Para's nothing much really they didnt get buffed. Rit even got screwed over with nerf to PwK. Well I hope A-Net will find time again to do some thinking about what is broken in the game. (just thinking of the bug called RoJ here) I'm calling it a bug because AI should make every monster scatter from a freakin Jezusbeam.
Well to end my post i would like to say that i'm hoping for "fun" skills for all professions in the next update.

Toxic OnyX · May 18, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Ponk you may as well hope for a-net to actually fix things and balance properly whilst your at it, none of these are likely to happen.

Good game going bad unfortunately

Abedeus · May 18, 2009, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

SF is fine. Other methods of farming are fine. I hate dungeon runs and I'll still say that. Some areas need an "easy" button because frankly, some areas are ridiculous without a good guild/alliance, and since a good guild/alliance gets harder to find every day, Shadow farming and 600 runnings are definitely a good thing in my book.

This translates to "if the area requires any amount of skill above the average PuG, it's too hard and I need help doing it, even though I don't deserve it".

There is already an Easy button - Normal Mode. I once was doing a Zaishen Quest, Boss Bounty one. I set HM, and after 10 minutes I had noticed that... it's not that hard. It was Kepkhet (? spellcheck someone) on Hard Mode and with only 3 heroes and 2 henches I managed to kill her. And it wasn't hard at all.

Or if it wasn't the fact that Dragon's Lair is incredibly long, boring and slow-paced, I would've finished both mission and bonus on HM. The only time I actually noticed the difficulty change was when elementalists started spiking my monks and I noticed I forgot to give them Protective Spirit. But that's all you need to have for Hard Mode - a bit of preparation and forethought. And skill.

I don't beg on Ninja Gaiden 2 forums that the game on higher difficulty is too hard. Because they made it harder than the rest of the game. If you can't beat a boss, you apparently aren't meant to kill him, yet.

anaiya · May 18, 2009, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

And I heard, no, I REMEMBER (something that people on this forum never tend to do), that it could be done with ONE perma-Sin using SF before by employing 3-4 Eles with Obsidian Flesh. If the point of killing Shadow Form would be to stop UWSC, then you're gonna have to kill Earth tanks as well. It's almost as fast, and, while it might take knowledge of 4 skills instead of 3 to stay alive, it's practically the same thing.

SF is fine. Other methods of farming are fine. I hate dungeon runs and I'll still say that. Some areas need an "easy" button because frankly, some areas are ridiculous without a good guild/alliance, and since a good guild/alliance gets harder to find every day, Shadow farming and 600 runnings are definitely a good thing in my book.

This +1.

STOP Q.Q'ing about Shadow Form! If it was gonna be nerfed, it would have been nerfed already! Jeez...you'd think people would learn.

Abedeus · May 18, 2009, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by anaiya

This +1.

STOP Q.Q'ing about Shadow Form! If it was gonna be nerfed, it would have been nerfed already! Jeez...you'd think people would learn.

I think YOU people had learned. Remember how long Ursan stayed with us? And then BAM and Ursan users finally shut the hell up about "ZOMG IT'S NOT GOING TO BE NERFED YOU NOOB IT'S BEEN HERE FOR A YEAR".

Never say never.

ponk · May 18, 2009, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxic OnyX

Ponk you may as well hope for a-net to actually fix things and balance properly whilst your at it, none of these are likely to happen.

Good game going bad unfortunately

I was being 100% sarcastic srry if you missed that

FengShuiDove · May 18, 2009, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

This translates to "if the area requires any amount of skill above the average PuG, it's too hard and I need help doing it, even though I don't deserve it".

Or, if you weren't elitist, you'd realize that some people that have already done every mission and dungeon in the game in Hard Mode just don't want to repeat them again. We all know that the preparation time for your guild/alliance is low because of the amount of quality members in it. For the rest of us, that's just not the case.

I've successfully completed every mission, dungeon, and all but one elite area in Hard Mode. It's hardly a matter of the difficulty, it's a matter of the preparation time and the level of coordination involved for a group of casual players.

And "deserve" it? What a vile, repulsive thing to say. How much did you pay for the game? Is it any more than I paid? And I should therefore have to "deserve" access to every area in a game that I paid for? That's ridiculous. Just because the "elites" think that areas should be so difficult that they're inaccessible to the casual player does not mean that's the case. Go find a more grind based game where once you're level 193 you can laugh and spit on the people lower than you. Guild Wars is not that game.

HEXED · May 18, 2009, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Imo this update have + and -

First i play warrior almost 3 yaers if i good remember. They change some time ago [Primal Rage] (bcuz was owerpowered), now they changed [Warrior's Endurance] - well ok. This skill was op, i was able all the time use skills,but hey that was third build using on the Ha/Gvg. Now we have only two - Shock Axe, and [Earth Shaker]. Now we need only to wait to nerf all warrior skills GG.

Now the second think the fail is [Lingering Curse]. The real power of this was not in this 33% but in recast and ene coast. Wonder who do this balance in Anet.

Next...[Aegis] - emm,eee,lol....huh? Better i will not comment this - but the idea was nice.

[Peace and Harmony] - correct this skill was create for nerf - here +1

[Word of Healing] - well, i dont see lots of change. I think still need some changes with this imba skill.

Also Ele and Ranger like always get boost in skills but who cares about that.

Still waiting for changing in skills like RoJ.

Targren · May 18, 2009, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

For once I agree with ^ Fay. It's been god mode for awhile now and needs to be nerfed to oblivion. At least give it a cool down period like the dervisher FORMS. It's a FORM and you nerfed DERVISHER FORMS TO SMITHEREENS so nerf Shadowform to smithereens as well.

Avatar of X + Eternal Aura = nerfed?

Permanent Forms with only 2 skills, and no stupid maluses that make the forms useless WITHOUT perma?

Yes, please give Shadow Form the Avatar treatment. It might suck less.

Seriously, QQ moar.

Abedeus · May 18, 2009, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Oh I'm sorry I didn't realize that once you pay for a game (even online one) you are entitled to everything the game has to offer, even if you are not skilled enough to get that content.

[QUOTE=FengShuiDove;4641674]Or, if you weren't elitist, you'd realize that some people that have already done every mission and dungeon in the game in Hard Mode just don't want to repeat them again. We all know that the preparation time for your guild/alliance is low because of the amount of quality members in it. For the rest of us, that's just not the case. [/qupte]

The best way to discuss is to offend the other person. Yeah.

If you want to play high end PvE, go find a good PvE guild. You can't complain "PvP in this game is too hard, make it easier for new players!!" if you are in a weak PvP guild. You know what was the original motto of the series? "Your skill, not time, will grant you victory" or something like that, I don't have time to search for the box (I have a Polish box anyway, so it wouldn't be exactly the same) to prove it. Want more content, find better people to play with.

Quote:

I've successfully completed every mission, dungeon, and all but one elite area in Hard Mode. It's hardly a matter of the difficulty, it's a matter of the preparation time and the level of coordination involved for a group of casual players.

Then where's the problem? Get a Ventrilo/TeamSpeak/Skype, get with people who want to do the mission and that's it. I don't think there are areas (except for UW/DoA, but DoA can be completed piece by piece) where you will spend more than 2 hours.

That's not that much, even for a casual player.

FengShuiDove · May 18, 2009, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Oh I'm sorry I didn't realize that once you pay for a game (even online one) you are entitled to everything the game has to offer, even if you are not skilled enough to get that content.

Uhhhhh... payment in exchange for goods and services. That's... the whole point of paying for something. You are entitled to content that you have paid for. Why would that not be the case?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

"Your skill, not time, will grant you victory"

Absolutely. And through my list of accomplishments I've proven my skill is plenty to finish most/all of the areas in the game. Not time? Like the time it takes to either find and get into one of those high-end alliances or the time it takes to coordinate and organize members from a casual one into a capable enough team to finish an elite area? This quote is exactly the reason why casual players enjoy the runs and the Shadow Form farms and whatever else. It allows them to employ their skill and knowledge of an area to finish an area with less time involvement than it would take otherwise.

I don't care that people get rich off of UWSC, and I'm glad that Underworld no longer takes 3 hours unless by choice to play balanced. These skills that so many people complain about are allowing people to have more fun and a broader expanse of experiences than they could have before. What's wrong with that? That's the way the game should be.

Abedeus · May 18, 2009, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Uhhhhh... payment in exchange for goods and services. That's... the whole point of paying for something. You are entitled to content that you have paid for. Why would that not be the case?

It's about an ONLINE game. You might as well complain that Ninja Gaiden 2 you have purchased is too hard, or that you can't have all the cash there is in EVE Online. What, you have paid for the game, didn't you? Then why those cheap bastards are denying content from you?!

Let's then make shops where people for 1g can get the rarest weapons, otherwise it's again blocking people from the content.

Quote:

Absolutely. And through my list of accomplishments I've proven my skill is plenty to finish most/all of the areas in the game. Not time? Like the time it takes to either find and get into one of those high-end alliances or the time it takes to coordinate and organize members from a casual one into a capable enough team to finish an elite area? This quote is exactly the reason why casual players enjoy the runs and the Shadow Form farms and whatever else. It allows them to employ their skill and knowledge of an area to finish an area with less time involvement than it would take otherwise.

Skill > Time in the terms "wins the game". No matter how skilled someone is, you can't speed things up. In theory, the most skilled players should go through Ascalon to Lion's Arch without any problems, runners and equipment (only what they find) in few hours. Why is that not likely? Because it takes time!

Quote:

I don't care that people get rich off of UWSC, and I'm glad that Underworld no longer takes 3 hours unless by choice to play balanced. These skills that so many people complain about are allowing people to have more fun and a broader expanse of experiences than they could have before. What's wrong with that? That's the way the game should be.

That most of the balanced groups are dead? Again, repeat from Ursan - you don't have it, you can't pug.

Don't you see how you contradict yourself?

1) you want SF, because it helps you get to teams.
2) otherwise, you can't find a good guild and do a quest.
3) what if someone doesn't have a character than can use SF? Will you force him to make on?
4) otherwise, you are denying him access from the goods he purchased. Honestly, without a group, it's not likely to complete UW HM just with heroes, and if it is, it's costly and would take 10 hours at least.

edit: About that skill>time, abilities like SF or Ursan completely destroy that concept. You used to get r10 norn, or you couldn't get into groups. And it was a HUGE time > skill, because retards could finish UW in an hour or so. I mean, come on, I could eat food with my right hand (dominant one) and play with 123 + Tab + Space (I didn't even had to move my fingers) and still win FoW HM. Sure, monks had it harder than Ursans, but you had constant knockdowns, huge DPS and 200 health and 20 armor more on everyone.

Now all you have to do is get an Assassin or Elementalist, get the right build which will cost ya about 5k for Assassin and 12k for Elementalist (assuming you buy only tomes), equip with crappy gear for Assassin or basic 60AL for Elementalist and you can do things skilled people had to try and do in a much longer time.

Grj · May 18, 2009, 04:22 PM // 16:22

How is Shadow Form worse then a 55/600? Its just as broken in some ways more then Shadow Form, how comes the PvE "balance" crowd favours and justifies certain professions and broken farms but when another profession has the same, people cry foul?

The people who cry economy as a reason to justifiy certain farming builds banned while letting others slide are bad...

Getting 4+ ecto back in the the day with a 55/600 when the ecto prices where 12-15k is ok, but getting the same amount of ecto when the prices are 4.5-6k is worse?

Anyway the amount of money getting dumped into the game every month via the XTH is worse for the economy then any farm to date...

Also for Shadow Form not to be maintained all the time, Shadow Form doesn't have to be nerfed, changes can be made to GoE or DP.

Lishy · May 18, 2009, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxic OnyX

*long-ass post*

I feel bad ANET has to sit through posts like Toxic OnyX's.
No wonder is takes so long to balance...

Video games are srsbsnss!

Also, the Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening sucks because the boomerang is the god mode button and Cave Story sucks because Spur destroys everything in your path.
Final Fantasy 6 also completely FAILS because you can double cast ultima and break the game.
Pokemon also fails most of all simply because a Pachirisu could NEVER compete with the unhuman stats and moveset, as well as ability that Tyranitar has. And THAT is completely unbalanced and totally unjust for Pachirisu users!!!

lol, like I said, balance is srsbsnss!
We should make Flare and Power Shot on par with Death Blossom and Save Yourselves because it is VERY SERIOUS BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bottom line: Everything has tiers.

Skye Marin · May 18, 2009, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

Anyway the amount of money getting dumped into the game every month via the XTH is worse for the economy then any farm to date...

Also for Shadow Form not to be maintained all the time, Shadow Form doesn't have to be nerfed, changes can be made to GoE or DP.

XTH doesn't dump money into the game. It re-distributes weath, which is really great for casual players, and the core players who pay money for the keys are happy to do it. They know what they are buying. There is a very big difference between being given an item that is worth money, and just been given money, in terms of economic harm.

Simply, if you can't understand that, then you're not qualified to make any comments about the economy or what should be done to improve it.

Farming can be fun, and is part of the game. If you want expensive stuff, you can earn it, just like in real life. No amount of skill nerfs or mob alterations will ever remove farming from the game, just lessen the speed or efficientcy, and people will adapt.

The next strongest will take its place, so why not promote farming that takes some skill, and promotes trade instead of earning cash flatly.

Gifts of the Traveller are a really good example here. Chromatic Drakes will be a bitch to farm quickly, but those who have the skill will make the cash by selling them for 5k each, and people will gladly buy to save them the time.

Megas XLR · May 18, 2009, 05:18 PM // 17:18

SFers are so defensive...

The only reason Shadow Form is still around today is because Anet wants to sell Factions. Everything else is moot.

Lishy · May 18, 2009, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megas XLR

SFers are so defensive...

The only reason Shadow Form is still around today is because Anet wants to sell Factions. Everything else is moot.

Mist Form and Obisdian Flesh, mah boi.
And yes, it is a business ploy. Do you think your post will cause Anet to change their viewpoint?

Toxic OnyX · May 18, 2009, 05:51 PM // 17:51

so kain you are one of those who would love perma+[uber nuke button] and would still defend it as not OP whilst spouting conspiracy heory practice on behalf of a-net rather than failure to understand the mechanic of their own game

GG

nice pic maybe if u get one big enough ppl will take you srs?

Targren · May 18, 2009, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

XTH doesn't dump money into the game. It re-distributes weath, which is really great for casual players, and the core players who pay money for the keys are happy to do it. They know what they are buying. There is a very big difference between being given an item that is worth money, and just been given money, in terms of economic harm.

Two points to consider:

1. That is simply not true when you can use them as currency. The keys increase the buying power of the recipient by $KEY_VALUE*$NUM_KEYS every month. This does not go away until the keys are put into the chest and removed, and the buying power is only removed from the one who used the keys.

2. You cannot, ever, at all, apply the rules of real-world economics to a closed system in which the money supply is infinite. Ever.

Quote:

Simply, if you can't understand that, then you're not qualified to make any comments about the economy or what should be done to improve it.

Mmmm. Irony.

NB: I have absolutely no problem with the XTH prizes. After watching the key price plummet over the past few months, I used all 380 of mine last weekend, and got a Q9 Voltaic Spear that I gave to Gen. Morgahn just to screw with people. ^_^